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Creatine Ethyl Ester or Kre-Alkalyne?
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Default Creatine Ethyl Ester or Kre-Alkalyne? - 02-28-2011, 11:56 AM

I am going to start taking some sort of creatine and I need to know a few things to see which I should take. I got some advice on here about another topic and one of the users recommended I start taking CEE, but when I do some research on it, it seems to me like it has not been tested enough to be proven safe or effective. But a few guys at the gym are using Kre-Alkalyne and they have said nothing but good things about it. I was wondering what you guys would recommend I take? Also, do i need to cycle these on and off for a certain amount of time? Please let me know everything I need to know about this stuff, Thanks!
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Default 02-28-2011, 02:14 PM

Good post man. There are basically 2 types of creatine overall. Creatine Monohydrate and Creatine Ethyl Ester HCL (CEE). Both Creatine supplements work the same way. There isn't as much study on the CEE because it is the exact same compound as the monohydrate but has an extra ester attached. In short terms this just to change the way the body reacts to the hydrogen ions in the form of water/alcohol…etc. The reason CEE was created is because it has been shown that some athlete's bodies respond poorly to Creatine Monohydrate because it is poorly absorbed by the body. This makes the athlete have to increase the dosages to achieve the proper amounts of creatine they desire in the body cells. Since the Creatine Monohydrate is poorly absorbed, some of it is left outside of the cell and attaches to H2O, this is what is known as "creatine bloat" or that watery, bloated look that no one wants.
When you take a CEE you can be more certain of the dosages you are getting because it uses lipids more efficiently to enter the cell compared to the monohydrate. I have taken Kre-Alk before and had some results but I swear by a good CEE. Kre-alk is a monohydrate but they state that it is stays creatine in the body longer before turning into creatinine. Creatinine is a metabolic enzyme in the body that signifies breakdown of muscle. If there is more serum creatinine in the body, the body is able to preserve more muscle mass because it tricks the body into thinking the muscle has already been broken down.
And to answer you last question, yes creatine should be cycled on and off. Increased levels of creatinine does incredible damage to your kidneys, especially over long periods of time. Elevated serum Creatinine (in the clinical settings) can tear apart your nephrons in your kidneys and puts patients into acute renal failure very quickly and once it is damaged you can never return to normal kidney function.

So I say CEE, and YES!! cycle on and off


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Default 02-28-2011, 03:09 PM

Thanks brother, that helped a ton. But I got a few more questions. How long should I cycle it on and off? 3 weeks on and 3 weeks off? Also, what brand would you recommend. I noticed that Axis Labs had some with the serving size of 2250mg of just CEE. I am already taking a preworkout so I was thinking that this would be a good product to use because it does not have all the other ingredients in it, just CEE. Plus it is 3 pills per serving whereas the others I was looking at on this sight were 4-6 per serving. Please let me know what you would recommend, thanks.
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Default 02-28-2011, 03:18 PM

I'm sure everyone's opinion differs, but I don't think you have to cycle it real often. Probably every 4 wks with 2 wks off would be more than sufficient in my opinion.


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Default 02-28-2011, 05:12 PM

I use creatine mono. It's stood the test of time and has been around for a while. Pretty cheap and good results.


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Default 02-28-2011, 05:15 PM

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Originally Posted by RickB View Post
I'm sure everyone's opinion differs, but I don't think you have to cycle it real often. Probably every 4 wks with 2 wks off would be more than sufficient in my opinion.
IMO you should stretch it out longer than 4 weeks rick. Unless you preload, it is going to take almost those 4 weeks to get results and get into your system.


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Default 02-28-2011, 06:02 PM

Yeah, true Matt. I wasn't really thinking of the mono. Do you think the CEE is the same? I never thought it took as long as mono.


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Default 02-28-2011, 06:19 PM

according to what ive read cee doesnt have to pre-loaded or cycled but 3-4months would be a limit without a break.


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Default 02-28-2011, 07:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB View Post
Yeah, true Matt. I wasn't really thinking of the mono. Do you think the CEE is the same? I never thought it took as long as mono.
Rick honestly I'm not sure about that. But the post i'm going to put up by layne norton is the reason why I stick with mono. He has abstracts from studies comparing the topic. I bolded the main points.




Cee & Kre-alkyln Debunked!!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Creatine ethyl ester rapidly degrades to creatinine in stomach acid

Child R1 and Tallon MJ2

1Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. 2University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, DrChild@CR-Technologies.net

Creatine ethyl ester (CEE) is a commercially available synthetic creatine that is now widely used in dietary supplements. It comprises of creatine with an ethyl group attached and this molecular configuration is reported to provide several advantages over creatine monohydrate (CM). The Medical Research Institute (CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (CE2) provides greater solubility in lipids, leading to improved absorption. Similarly San (San Corporation, CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (San CM2 Alpha) avoids the breakdown of creatine to creatinine in stomach acids. Ultimately it is claimed that CEE products provide greater absorption and efficacy than CM. To date, none of these claims have been evaluated by an independent, or university laboratory and no comparative data are available on CEE and CM.

This study assessed the availability of creatine from three commercial creatine products during degradation in acidic conditions similar to those that occur in the stomach. They comprised of two products containing CEE (San CM2 Alpha and CE2) and commercially available CM (Creapure?). An independent laboratory, using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP), performed the analysis. Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37? 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes. Creatine availability was assessed by immediately assaying for free creatine, CEE and the creatine breakdown product creatinine, using HPLC (UV)

After 30 minutes incubation only 73% of the initial CEE present was available from CE2, while the amount of CEE available from San CM2 Alpha was even lower at only 62%. In contrast, more than 99% of the creatine remained available from the CM product. These reductions in CEE availability were accompanied by substantial creatinine formation, without the appearance of free creatine. After 120minutes incubation 72% of the CEE was available from CE2 with only 11% available from San CM2 Alpha, while more than 99% of the creatine remained available from CM.

CEE is claimed to provide several advantages over CM because of increased solubility and stability. In practice, the addition of the ethyl group to creatine actually reduces acid stability and accelerates its breakdown to creatinine. This substantially reduces creatine availability in its esterified form and as a consequence creatines such as San CM2 and CE2 are inferior to CM as a source of free creatine.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Kre-alkalyn? supplementation has no beneficial effect on creatine-to-creatinine conversion rates.

Tallon MJ1 and Child R2

1University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, 2Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. DrTallon@CR-Technologies.net

All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp. (Billings, MT, USA) claim that Kre-alkalyn? (KA) a ?Buffered? creatine, is 100% stable in stomach acid and does not convert to creatinine. In contrast, they also claim that creatine monohydrate (CM) is highly pH labile with more than 90% of the creatine converting to the degradation product creatinine in stomach acids. To date, no independent or university laboratory has evaluated the stability of KA in stomach acids, assessed its possible conversion to creatinine, or made direct comparisons of acid stability with CM.

This study examined whether KA supplementation reduced the rate of creatine conversion to creatinine, relative to commercially available CM (Creapure?). Creatine products were analyzed by an independent commercial laboratory using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP). Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37? 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes and immediately analyzed by HPLC (UV) for creatine and creatinine.

In contrast to the claims of All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp., the rate of creatinine formation from CM was found to be less than 1% of the initial dose, demonstrating that CM is extremely stable under acidic conditions that replicate those of the stomach. This study also showed that KA supplementation actually resulted in 35% greater conversion of creatine to creatinine than CM. In conclusion the conversion of creatine to creatinine is not a limitation in the delivery of creatine from CM and KA is less stable than CM in the acid conditions of the stomach.

I was at the ISSN conference when Mark Tallon presented these and I literally almost high fived him. It's about time this crap died!

Now no more of this "cee works bro & kre-alkyln works bro' bull****

-Layne

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I'll leave it at that so nothing gets stirred up


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Default 05-07-2011, 12:25 AM

Back in the day I'd say creapure mono, FTW... but then I hooked up wth MAN & tried orotine... holy f@#% dude. seriously, strength was up after 2days... no joke bro


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Default 05-07-2011, 09:46 AM

Def. some good discussion here. I've been on my CCE since Ive been back to the gym, ( this will be my forth month) I'm just about out, and I think Ill give it 2 weeks off. Just because.


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Default 05-27-2011, 02:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAiNeIAC View Post
Back in the day I'd say creapure mono, FTW... but then I hooked up wth MAN & tried orotine... holy f@#% dude. seriously, strength was up after 2days... no joke bro
I agree with you on this. I love orotine.

Creatine monohydrate has a LOT of backing and research behind it, whereas creatine ethyl ester really doesn't have much proof behind it, except MOSTLY reports by users saying that it's good and doesn't cause the bloat that they would get with monohydrate. In theory, yes it sounds wonderful. But with all the contraversy, I honestly wouldn't use it. I have tried it in the past, but it didn't really do anything positive for me. It didn't bloat me, but it didn't enhance my lifts in any rep range.

Creatine nitrate formulas, specifically C-Bol, are something I would give a shot. It would put it slightly above orotine, because I achieve significant vascularity when I use it due to the nitrates. My muscles feel fuller on it than any other creatine and my vascularity lasts long after the gym.

Then again, it's up to you to decide what is best for you. I have taken very few breaks from creatine. It seems that in some product I use, there is some form of creatine that's in there and I probably have only had 2 breaks in a year. I experience no physical symptoms of having kidney issues, but I'm sure it's better than the chronic intake of pesticides that are on my grocery store vegetables. I rarely break from them.
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Default 05-31-2011, 03:13 PM

Mono is the cheapest and safest bet.
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Default 06-05-2014, 10:27 PM

Def creatine mono for me, like most have said above, due to its extensive research and proven safety. I take Krealklyn tablets for ease of consumption and no worry about what to mix it in, and certainly no need for cycling.


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