IllPumpYouUp.com - Bodybuilding, Powerlifting, & Fitness Find Us on Facebook! Follow Us on Twitter! Follow Us on Twitter! Ad Space Available
Register FAQ Members List Social Groups Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   IllPumpYouUp.com - Bodybuilding, Powerlifting, & Fitness > Specifically For You > Over Age 35 Bodybuilders
Reload this Page Eccentric (negative)
Over Age 35 Bodybuilders A forum for those over the age of 35.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Eccentric (negative)
(#1)
Old
omaha16859's Avatar
omaha16859 is Offline
5 STAR MEMBER
omaha16859 is a jewel in the rough
 
Posts: 2,652
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Join Date: Feb 2006
Default Eccentric (negative) - 06-28-2012, 10:40 AM

So I have been doing 5 second negatives on all heavy lifts for a couple weeks now. Results have been great and noticeable, so very soon, surprisingly. But, how much is too much? I am sore a bit here and there and know to wait off the DOMS before lifting again. However, even after DOMS is gone, I suppose there is still a shot of over training while working this way. I have not done this for so many years and have just focused on concentric. I am amazed at how much better my joints, core and lower back feel after these few weeks. So, have you done this before and what was your experience when lifting this way? Were you able to lift at your normal intervals or did you have to cut back? Did you eliminate a set of each exercise? Did you add in a extra day of no training to offset muscle tear down/rebuild? Like or dislike? Thanks for all your input and as usual good to be here when I can.


Jack3D and that's it, nothing else other then FOOD
Reply With Quote
(#2)
Old
DevilDog324's Avatar
DevilDog324 is Offline
AX
DevilDog324 will become famous soon enough
 
Posts: 1,061
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Stillwater
Default 06-28-2012, 10:45 AM

I have been doing 4 second negatives. You are right, it's brutal. I get sore after almost every workout! Lol. As long as your diet is solid and you are getting enough sleep, you shouldn't be overtraining. Are you taking any BCAA's or glutamine? Something to help aid in recovery besides diet and sleep.


Team AX
AX Sponsored Athlete


Liftin weights, and eatin steaks!

If you're not going to enter the pain zone on leg day, you might as well go play hopscotch in the parking lot of your gym.
Reply With Quote
(#3)
Old
RickB's Avatar
RickB is Offline
Admin/IPYU I.T.
RickB has much to be proud of RickB has much to be proud of RickB has much to be proud of RickB has much to be proud of RickB has much to be proud of
 
Posts: 12,669
Thanks: 13
Thanked 36 Times in 36 Posts
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Jacksonville, TX
Send a message via Yahoo to RickB
Default 06-28-2012, 10:47 AM

whaddup Omaha! I do me some slow negatives at times. Seems to work well! See you again in 2013 for your next post.


Socrates: "All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine."
Current Supplements: Protein (varies) - ON Optimen Vitamins - PreSurge Unleashed - SciVation Xtend (Recovery)[FONT=Tahoma]








Reply With Quote
(#4)
Old
omaha16859's Avatar
omaha16859 is Offline
5 STAR MEMBER
omaha16859 is a jewel in the rough
 
Posts: 2,652
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Join Date: Feb 2006
Default 06-28-2012, 11:32 AM

Crack me up Rick! LOL Sleep is never good for me due to work, kids and stubbornness. And no BCAA's or glutamine just good old fashion food.
I guess what got me going on all of this was a episode of Extreme makeover/ weight loss edition. The trainer was talking about negatives lengthening the muscle and then the more I read online the more I saw about eccentric contractions and being able to move more weight with less accessory muscles being used. And the estimates on the more weight were in the 40% more range. So more weight with less muscle activation meant that the muscle was getting some serious work done on it while still having to work through the heavy concentric movement too. So in all a very complete muscle tear down at every workout.


Jack3D and that's it, nothing else other then FOOD
Reply With Quote
(#5)
Old
endunamoomechristoo's Avatar
endunamoomechristoo is Offline
Junior Member
endunamoomechristoo is on a distinguished road
 
Posts: 9
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Join Date: Jun 2012
Default 06-28-2012, 02:01 PM

Solid research, eccentric movements just isolate the muscle more because less force can be generated as the muscle fibers lose "contact" so you put yourself at a disadvantage almost and therefore do more work with less. As for joints i've seen some research that shows continued negative work actually can mess with joints and lead to pinching. Plus as creatures were not made to do slow eccentric work but powerful concentric so be weary and cycle between the two.


Writer for www.endunamoomechristoo.com
Solid Athletes Serious about Christ
Fbook Group -> http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/136918003097744/

Current Holder of:
USAPL TX RAW Squat 90 kg record @ 551 lbs
Reply With Quote
(#6)
Old
ouija's Avatar
ouija is Offline
5 STAR MEMBER
ouija is a jewel in the rough
 
Posts: 1,499
Thanks: 4
Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: CT
Default 06-28-2012, 07:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilDog324 View Post
I have been doing 4 second negatives. You are right, it's brutal. I get sore after almost every workout! Lol. As long as your diet is solid and you are getting enough sleep, you shouldn't be overtraining. Are you taking any BCAA's or glutamine? Something to help aid in recovery besides diet and sleep.
Careful with all that. If you're still doing MI40 or whatever Pakulski is doing these days remember his recovery time is probably less than half of what your's is.


"Ain't nothin to it but to do it"

"If I'm gonna die tonight, if this weight is gonna kill me tonight, then so be it."
Reply With Quote
(#7)
Old
omaha16859's Avatar
omaha16859 is Offline
5 STAR MEMBER
omaha16859 is a jewel in the rough
 
Posts: 2,652
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Join Date: Feb 2006
Default 06-28-2012, 09:23 PM

http://www.brianmac.co.uk/mustrain.htm

http://www.uta.edu/coehp/kinesiology...ell_thesis.pdf


Jack3D and that's it, nothing else other then FOOD
Reply With Quote
(#8)
Old
omaha16859's Avatar
omaha16859 is Offline
5 STAR MEMBER
omaha16859 is a jewel in the rough
 
Posts: 2,652
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Join Date: Feb 2006
Default 06-28-2012, 09:41 PM

QUOTE
From a physiology point of view, lower a heavy weight too fast and you get golgi-tendon organ interference. The golgi will actually block muscle contraction to prevent tearing, and you aren't really making the muscle engage properly.

Go too slow and the muscle is just fine, but the CNS is, in a manner of speaking, burning through its fuel so fast you can see the gauge moving. It becomes a test of isometric-strength endurance. This will make you better at doing really slow negatives, but it won't necessarily make the muscle bigger at that point.

Methods of primary interest to the serious bodybuilder are negatives, loaded stretching (contrary to popular belief, this method does not require consuming alcoholic beverages prior to stretching) and concentrated loading microcycles. Let us briefly go over these methods and the terms used to describe them.

"Negatives" is a bodybuilding term used to describe the eccentric portion of a movement or exercise. In research you will sometimes see it referred to as "active lengthening".

This means stretching a muscle to increase its length while under voluntary contraction to resist the stretch. The result of this eccentric action is an increase in tissue micro damage and an increase in eccentric strength.

Negatives are known to be responsible for the infamous delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) that so many of us sadistically strive to achieve. The increase in eccentric strength is a result of neurological adaptations facilitating motor unit coordination during eccentric contractions. As bodybuilders, all we are interested in is the microtrauma.

As mentioned on numerous occasions, we must have micro trauma in order to allow growth factors to "leak out" into the interstitial space, and thus to activate satellite cells. These satellite cells then donate myo-nuclei which help to produce additional contractile and structural proteins.

Certainly I would not recommend negatives unless there were some evidence indicating there usefulness. Type II fibers are favorably activated by the muscle during eccentric contractions as compared to type I fibers.

Type II fibers are those that contribute the majority of growth produced by bodybuilding type training. The stimuli from eccentric loading and concentric loading are similar except that the proportions of the stimuli from eccentric loading are different in some very important ways.

First, the load that is placed on the muscle during an eccentric movement is not distributed over as many fibers as during a concentric movement (Ebbeling, 1989). When measuring EMG activity, or the electrical activity in the muscle, Ebbeling found that it is lower during negative work at both maximal and sub maximal intensities.

This suggests that relatively few fibers are recruited to produce large forces. Therefore, under comparable workloads, eccentric actions produce greater tension per cross-sectional area of active muscle than concentric contractions. In other words, lowering the weight produces more load per fiber than lifting it!

Does increasing the load per fiber as seen in eccentric contractions lead to increases in fiber diameter or simply put, GROWTH?

Hortobagyi (Hortobagyi, 1996) found dramatic differences between subjects performing isokinetic concentric contractions as compared to isokinetic eccentric contractions. Muscle strength, fiber size, and surface EMG activity of the quadriceps were compared after 36 sessions (12 weeks) of maximal isokinetic concentric or eccentric leg extensions.

Eccentric training increased eccentric strength 3.5 times more (pre/post 46%) than concentric training increased concentric strength (pre/post 13%). Eccentric training increased concentric strength and concentric training increased eccentric strength by about the same magnitude (5 and 10%, respectively).

Eccentric training increased EMG activity seven times more during eccentric testing (pre/post 86%) than concentric training increased EMG activity during concentric testing (pre/post 12%).

Eccentric training increased the EMG activity measured during concentric tests and concentric training increased the EMG activity measured during eccentric tests by about the same magnitude (8 and 11%, respectively).

Type I muscle fiber percentages did not change significantly, but type IIa fibers increased and type IIb fibers decreased significantly in both training groups. Type I fiber areas did not change significantly, but type II fiber area increased approximately 10 times more in the eccentric than in the concentric group.


Jack3D and that's it, nothing else other then FOOD
Reply With Quote
(#9)
Old
omaha16859's Avatar
omaha16859 is Offline
5 STAR MEMBER
omaha16859 is a jewel in the rough
 
Posts: 2,652
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Join Date: Feb 2006
Default 06-28-2012, 09:49 PM

The more I read the more I am questioning all of this. No definitive answers either way.


Jack3D and that's it, nothing else other then FOOD
Reply With Quote
(#10)
Old
omaha16859's Avatar
omaha16859 is Offline
5 STAR MEMBER
omaha16859 is a jewel in the rough
 
Posts: 2,652
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Join Date: Feb 2006
Default 06-29-2012, 02:39 PM

And today's University studies I found have led me to Pilates. The strong base of Pilates exercises are eccentric movements. Generating long and lean muscle development. Now, taking that info and mixing with concentric lifting makes for a bulk and tone combo? Maybe the eccentric articles of the 90's were onto something? Not a bodybuilder workout, but a healthy in shape workout for sure and good for power development with type 2 fiber recruitment.

From Wiki:
Eccentric contraction
During an eccentric contraction, the muscle elongates while under tension due to an opposing force being greater than the force generated by the muscle.[3] Rather than working to pull a joint in the direction of the muscle contraction, the muscle acts to decelerate the joint at the end of a movement or otherwise control the repositioning of a load. This can occur involuntarily (when attempting to move a weight too heavy for the muscle to lift) or voluntarily (when the muscle is 'smoothing out' a movement). Over the short-term, strength training involving both eccentric and concentric contractions appear to increase muscular strength more than training with concentric contractions alone.[4]
During an eccentric contraction of the biceps muscle, the elbow starts the movement while bent and then straightens as the hand moves away from the shoulder. During an eccentric contraction of the triceps muscle, the elbow starts the movement straight and then bends as the hand moves towards the shoulder. Desmin, titin, and other z-line proteins are involved in eccentric contractions, but their mechanism is poorly understood in comparison to cross-bridge cycling in concentric contractions.[3]
Muscles undergoing heavy eccentric loading suffer greater damage when overloaded (such as during muscle building or strength training exercise) as compared to concentric loading. When eccentric contractions are used in weight training, they are normally called negatives. During a concentric contraction, muscle fibers slide across each other, pulling the Z-lines together. During an eccentric contraction, the filaments slide past each other the opposite way, though the actual movement of the myosin heads during an eccentric contraction is not known. Exercise featuring a heavy eccentric load can actually support a greater weight (muscles are approximately 40% stronger during eccentric contractions than during concentric contractions) and also results in greater muscular damage and delayed onset muscle soreness one to two days after training. Exercise that incorporates both eccentric and concentric muscular contractions (i.e. involving a strong contraction and a controlled lowering of the weight) can produce greater gains in strength than concentric contractions alone.[4][5] While unaccustomed heavy eccentric contractions can easily lead to overtraining, moderate training may confer protection against injury.[4]
[edit]Eccentric contractions in movement
Eccentric contractions normally occur as a braking force in opposition to a concentric contraction to protect joints from damage. During virtually any routine movement, eccentric contractions assist in keeping motions smooth, but can also slow rapid movements such as a punch or throw. Part of training for rapid movements such as pitching during baseball involves reducing eccentric braking allowing a greater power to be developed throughout the movement.
Eccentric contractions are being researched for their ability to speed rehab of weak or injured tendons. Achilles tendinitis has been shown to benefit from high-load eccentric contractions.[6][7]

Type I Red fibers. Slow oxidative (also called slow twitch or fatigue resistant fibers). Contain:
Large amounts of myoglobin.
Many mitochondria.
Many blood capillaries.
Generate ATP by the aerobic system, hence the term oxidative fibers.
Split ATP at a slow rate.
Slow contraction velocity.
Resistant to fatigue.
Found in large numbers in postural muscles.
Needed for aerobic activities like long distance running.
Type IIa Red fibers. Fast oxidative (also called fast twitch A or fatigue resistant fibers). Contain:
Large amounts of myoglobin.
Many mitochondria.
Many blood capillaries.
Large amount of glycogen.
High capacity for generating ATP by oxidation. Split ATP at a very rapid rate and, hence, high contraction velocity
Resistant to fatigue but not as much as slow oxidative fibers.
Needed for sports such as middle distance running and swimming.
Type IIx / IIb (dependent upon species) White. Fast glycolytic (also called fast twitch B or fatigable fibers). Contain:
Low myoglobin content.
Few mitochondria.
Few blood capillaries.
Large amount of Creatine phosphate.
Split ATP very quickly.
Fatigue easily.
Needed for sports like sprinting.
Individual muscles are a mixture of 3 types of muscle fibers (type 1, type 2a and type 2b), but their proportions vary depending on the action of that muscle. It must be remembered that skeletal muscles, although a mixture, can only have one type of muscle fiber within a motor unit. This is demonstrated if we look at contractions. E.g. If a weak contraction is needed only the type 1 motor units will be activated. These fibers are used mainly for endurance activities. If a stronger contraction is required the type 2a fibers will be activated or used to assist the type 1 fibers. Maximal contractions facilitate the use of type 2b fibers which are always activated last. These fibers are used during ballistic activities but tire easily. With advanced EMG techniques it is possible to look at which muscle fibers are recruited when performing an exercise/test. The total number of skeletal muscle fibers has traditionally been thought not to change. It is believed there are no sex or age differences in fiber distribution, however, relative fiber types vary considerably from muscle to muscle and person to person. Sedentary men and women (as well as young children) have 45% type 2 and 55% type 1 fibers.[citation needed] People at the higher end of any sport tend to demonstrate patterns of fiber distribution e.g. endurance athletes show a higher level of type 1 fibers. Sprint athletes, on the other hand, require large numbers of type 2 b fibers. Middle distance event athletes show approximately equal distribution of the 2 types. This is also often the case for power athletes such as throwers and jumpers. It has been suggested that various types of exercise can induce changes in the fibers of a skeletal muscle.[2] It is thought that if you perform endurance type events for a sustained period of time, some of the type 2b fibers transform into type 2a fibers. However, there is no consensus on the subject. It may well be that the type 2b fibers show enhancements of the oxidative capacity after high intensity endurance training which brings them to a level at which they are able to perform oxidative metabolism as effectively as slow twitch fibers of untrained subjects. This would be brought about by an increase in mitochondrial size and number and the associated related changes not a change in fiber type.


Jack3D and that's it, nothing else other then FOOD
Reply With Quote
(#11)
Old
RickB's Avatar
RickB is Offline
Admin/IPYU I.T.
RickB has much to be proud of RickB has much to be proud of RickB has much to be proud of RickB has much to be proud of RickB has much to be proud of
 
Posts: 12,669
Thanks: 13
Thanked 36 Times in 36 Posts
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Jacksonville, TX
Send a message via Yahoo to RickB
Default 06-29-2012, 03:22 PM

You just gave me some bathroom "library" material.


Socrates: "All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine."
Current Supplements: Protein (varies) - ON Optimen Vitamins - PreSurge Unleashed - SciVation Xtend (Recovery)[FONT=Tahoma]








Reply With Quote
(#12)
Old
cra_training_zy is Offline
Senior Member
cra_training_zy will become famous soon enough
 
Posts: 419
Thanks: 9
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Join Date: May 2012
Location: England.
Default 06-29-2012, 06:57 PM

good reading on the toilet is fundametal. cant do without it. i always turn a 5 minute task into half an hour.
Reply With Quote
(#13)
Old
endunamoomechristoo's Avatar
endunamoomechristoo is Offline
Junior Member
endunamoomechristoo is on a distinguished road
 
Posts: 9
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Join Date: Jun 2012
Default 06-29-2012, 08:40 PM

don't go to wiki for research sources because it can be a lot of personal opinion and "picked studies." With eccentric you're taking the agonists and firing them longer while repolarizing the antagonist's until they're needed. Negatives aren't bad but they take away from the athletic edge. Think of the record holder in the squat, he's going to descend slowly creating contractility and elasticity in his antagonists [for example adductors] and then explode up having a greater fast twitch response. Concentric movements make all the muscle attribute rather than pull 100% from a sole muscle source, that's why in the quad study the growth wasn't as "great" eccentric work is great for strength athletes but not for bodybuilders.


Writer for www.endunamoomechristoo.com
Solid Athletes Serious about Christ
Fbook Group -> http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/136918003097744/

Current Holder of:
USAPL TX RAW Squat 90 kg record @ 551 lbs
Reply With Quote
(#14)
Old
omaha16859's Avatar
omaha16859 is Offline
5 STAR MEMBER
omaha16859 is a jewel in the rough
 
Posts: 2,652
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Join Date: Feb 2006
Default 07-02-2012, 11:28 AM

Wiki all seemed pretty factual for me (A@P 1 @ 2) with no opinion thrown in on that one. And yeah, I agree not a bodybuilder workout at all. But for great shape and tone, I think it's right on. I've also read that for ab's and calves this is a great way to work? That probably falls more into the personal opinion there. Thanks for your input on all of this!


Jack3D and that's it, nothing else other then FOOD
Reply With Quote
(#15)
Old
omaha16859's Avatar
omaha16859 is Offline
5 STAR MEMBER
omaha16859 is a jewel in the rough
 
Posts: 2,652
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Join Date: Feb 2006
Default 07-07-2012, 06:31 PM

So far so good. About 2 weeks into this training style and results have been very good. Joints feel great, lifting weights are going up and body weight is dropping. Have also been walking the treadmill at incline max with a 3.2 mph speed for 30 mins daily which burns 550+ cals. Finally getting my groin to stop hurting which allowed me to squat 455 today for 1 beltless.


Jack3D and that's it, nothing else other then FOOD
Reply With Quote
(#16)
Old
RickB's Avatar
RickB is Offline
Admin/IPYU I.T.
RickB has much to be proud of RickB has much to be proud of RickB has much to be proud of RickB has much to be proud of RickB has much to be proud of
 
Posts: 12,669
Thanks: 13
Thanked 36 Times in 36 Posts
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Jacksonville, TX
Send a message via Yahoo to RickB
Default 07-10-2012, 06:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by omaha16859 View Post
So far so good. About 2 weeks into this training style and results have been very good. Joints feel great, lifting weights are going up and body weight is dropping. Have also been walking the treadmill at incline max with a 3.2 mph speed for 30 mins daily which burns 550+ cals. Finally getting my groin to stop hurting which allowed me to squat 455 today for 1 beltless.
Great job an good news all the way around!


Socrates: "All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine."
Current Supplements: Protein (varies) - ON Optimen Vitamins - PreSurge Unleashed - SciVation Xtend (Recovery)[FONT=Tahoma]








Reply With Quote
(#17)
Old
omaha16859's Avatar
omaha16859 is Offline
5 STAR MEMBER
omaha16859 is a jewel in the rough
 
Posts: 2,652
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Join Date: Feb 2006
Default 07-17-2012, 12:51 PM

10 days later and the gains keep coming which is a plus. The downside is I can't lift effectively on some lifts without a spotter now. To get the results from this the weight needs to be heavier then even my one rep max concentric for my last set. So a spotter is essential. It also brings issues for me when doing overhead presses cause that weight is hell on bad shoulders. But, it has given me a lot of my concentric strength back. And of course with a spotter and heavy you have to have someone around who can pull at least 50% of the weight off of ya. I have been lucky so far that there are peeps around who can do this. But, I am sure there will be that one instance where there is not. Lastly, I am exhausting my cable choices due to stacks not going high enough with this which is not good. But over all a big plus for eccentric lifting.


Jack3D and that's it, nothing else other then FOOD
Reply With Quote
(#18)
Old
RoaringMad Mac's Avatar
RoaringMad Mac is Offline
Hulk Administrator
RoaringMad Mac has a reputation beyond repute RoaringMad Mac has a reputation beyond repute RoaringMad Mac has a reputation beyond repute RoaringMad Mac has a reputation beyond repute RoaringMad Mac has a reputation beyond repute RoaringMad Mac has a reputation beyond repute RoaringMad Mac has a reputation beyond repute RoaringMad Mac has a reputation beyond repute RoaringMad Mac has a reputation beyond repute RoaringMad Mac has a reputation beyond repute RoaringMad Mac has a reputation beyond repute
 
Posts: 14,041
Thanks: 6
Thanked 49 Times in 49 Posts
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Margaret Alabama
Send a message via MSN to RoaringMad Mac Send a message via Yahoo to RoaringMad Mac
Default 07-17-2012, 01:10 PM

AWESOME.

I've always been a fan of negatives. Keep it up.


FREE YOUR MIND AND YOUR ASS WILL FOLLOW
Reply With Quote
(#19)
Old
omaha16859's Avatar
omaha16859 is Offline
5 STAR MEMBER
omaha16859 is a jewel in the rough
 
Posts: 2,652
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Join Date: Feb 2006
Default 08-07-2012, 04:24 PM

Not sure where I am for time now? But, weights are up still and going. Setting some new PR's with only Jack3D being used occasionally. Not PH's or AAS's, and things just keep going great. Joints feel awesome, negatives keep giving me good things. Inner thigh seems to be healed as I did walking DB lunges the other day with 85lb DB's in each hand. Squats are back in the 3-4 rep range for 405 belt less. Did some dead lifts today and hit 455 with lil effort and a good 5 sec negative on the decent. Weight is holding in the 255-260 range. Starting to even see some more abdominal definition and my diet has been not so great. More protein but that is it. Still walking on the TM for 30 mins at 15 grade and 3.2 mph everyday. Only bad thing was a week or so a go I was doing 36" box jumps and hit my damn hand when jumping on the box. Fingers still hurt and it's hard to make a fist. Oh well, moving on.


Jack3D and that's it, nothing else other then FOOD
Reply With Quote
(#20)
Old
RickB's Avatar
RickB is Offline
Admin/IPYU I.T.
RickB has much to be proud of RickB has much to be proud of RickB has much to be proud of RickB has much to be proud of RickB has much to be proud of
 
Posts: 12,669
Thanks: 13
Thanked 36 Times in 36 Posts
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Jacksonville, TX
Send a message via Yahoo to RickB
Default 08-07-2012, 09:34 PM

Careful with slow negatives in DL's bro!


Socrates: "All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine."
Current Supplements: Protein (varies) - ON Optimen Vitamins - PreSurge Unleashed - SciVation Xtend (Recovery)[FONT=Tahoma]








Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Skin developed by: vBStyles.com