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Reload this Page Diet plan...any thoughts?
Diet & Nutrition Tips on eating healthy and eating enough. What and how much you eat can make a huge difference in building muscle & improving performance.


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Default 04-14-2008, 12:52 PM

Now, I never said Protein powders where as good as whole food sources quite the opposite.

I did say however that most people find it difficult to eat 6 whole meals a day.

Supplementing with real whole foods is much better than supplementing with shakes that is true but when you can't use the subsitution this is where the Protein powders offer another avenue to still get in protein.

Now, it should also be stated that if a person tries hard enough and plans accordingly then they can eat whole meals to meet there protein needs and Complex carb needs.

In total true In my opinion I believe if you have a good diet plan down with real whole protein sources and complex carbs the only time you would really benefit from Protein shakes is right after an intense workout session where like Jordan stated the Protein is digested rather quickly which means it is getting into your body and helping to go repair muscle fibers much more effectively.

What Jordan stated was right on the money.

Hope I did not sound like I was contradicting myself.


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Default 04-14-2008, 03:23 PM

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Originally Posted by Jordan566 View Post
I really have to disagree with the protein shakes being as good as real food sources and this is why- a whey protein shake gets absorbed digested and removed from the body in 20 minutes....yes, 20 minutes. This means the rest of the time between that shake and your next meal, your body is without a protein source to build new tissue/repair old tissue. This can also lead to catabolism if your physical exertion/metabolism is great enough. One way around this is to use hydrolyzed WPI (whey protein isolate) or casien whey. The problem with those shakes is that you lose your thermogenic effect of real food, which essentially is your body burning calories to digest food, which is a good thing for metabolism and fat loss.

Look, its very easy to add 25lbs, and have 10-15 of that be fat. That is for sure, and to be honest, on this board there aren't a whole lot of people who have added 25lbs of pure muscle without the use of androgens. So I say to you this, let's aim for 5-8lbs of pure muscle in 2 months. That is achievable, but will take dedication. I will blanketly say that none of the previously posted diets will get you 25lbs of lean muscle, probably about 10-12max and a lot of water retention and fat.

If it were that simple to add 25lbs of pure muscle, there would be a lot more really lean and huge guys in the world. To add 10 lbs of lean body mass, it takes a lot of hard work to do, but it's doable with the right diet and intensity.

The reason I said all of this is because most people when they bulk, blow up 30lbs or more, then cut down to show the 10lbs of lean mass they actually added in that sloppy bulk phase. Those are the two roads to the same end result, fast and sloppy, or slow and lean....just my .02.
Well well well..Add a little olive oil to it and it will slow its absorption rate down..Also we have different forms of whey to counter the period of obsorptsion rate (isolates, concentrates, casein which is slower then the other two... ect ect).... As I stated eartlier whole foods are always better but when time doesn't give a person whole foods, I'd rather see them with a shake in hand then go empty..

For me personally I do fine on 3 whole meals and 3 shakes..If I'm gonna worry totally about protein obsorption rate I would go to an all veggie protein before bed as it's rate is slower then all anaimal products because of its cellulose covering..But that's not for me.

On to the weight gain..You take a newbie that is just starting out...He 6' tall and weighs 160 lbs..I can personally guarantee you that I can put on his frame 30 lbs in 6 months with little to no added fat. Stop by Intense Muscle sometime and take a look at 100 plus people who have been at it for sometime and you'll find that irt can be done even to experienced lifters...Dante of Doggcrapp has done it over and over. Just my 2 cents...and I still love you Jordon and do agree again that whole foods are better...Remember that whey protein has more amino acids then you get from whole food proteins..So there's up and downs with anything




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Default 04-14-2008, 06:48 PM

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Originally Posted by Tough old man View Post
Well well well..Add a little olive oil to it and it will slow its absorption rate down..Also we have different forms of whey to counter the period of obsorptsion rate (isolates, concentrates, casein which is slower then the other two... ect ect).... As I stated eartlier whole foods are always better but when time doesn't give a person whole foods, I'd rather see them with a shake in hand then go empty..

For me personally I do fine on 3 whole meals and 3 shakes..If I'm gonna worry totally about protein obsorption rate I would go to an all veggie protein before bed as it's rate is slower then all anaimal products because of its cellulose covering..But that's not for me.

On to the weight gain..You take a newbie that is just starting out...He 6' tall and weighs 160 lbs..I can personally guarantee you that I can put on his frame 30 lbs in 6 months with little to no added fat. Stop by Intense Muscle sometime and take a look at 100 plus people who have been at it for sometime and you'll find that irt can be done even to experienced lifters...Dante of Doggcrapp has done it over and over. Just my 2 cents...and I still love you Jordon and do agree again that whole foods are better...Remember that whey protein has more amino acids then you get from whole food proteins..So there's up and downs with anything

I'm not going to argue because the point is moot and I RESPECT your knowledge and opinion on the matter. But, I will argue that 25lbs of lbm added in less than 1 year is impossible without the use of androgens and without a very intense diet that is beyond the scope of 90% of mankind. Just my .02 and experience. Best of luck to the OP.
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Default 04-15-2008, 08:02 AM

Jordon I wanted to post this in regards to the 20 min on whey protein..Yesterday I emailed Tru Protein in regards to the obsorption of their powders..Here's was their response back..

Hey T.O.M, thanks for the email! Unforutnately Mike is not available but I would be more than happy to address that for you. That information is completely false as stated and is a generalization; the only whey proteins that will completely absorb within the first 20 minutes will be Hydrolyzed Whey Proteins which have been predigested for faster absorbtion. Whey Isolates and Whey Concentrates tend to digest within 1-2 hours typically. There are three basic categories that protein powders fall into:



Fast Digesting Proteins (0-2hrs):

Hydro Whey

Whey Concentrate

Whey Isolate

Hydro Casein



Medium Digesting Proteins (2-4hrs):

Soy and vegetable based proteins

Egg proteins

Hemp Protein



Slow Digesting Proteins (4-6hrs):

Caseins

Milk Protein Isolates



Thanks again and please get back to us with any additional questions or feel free to post them into the True Protein Forums,

-Carl


I'd really be interested in where your facts came from so we can all compare them and make our own decision...

For myself I alway take a shake to bed and when I awake during the middle of ther night I have a shake..

Thanks for letting me rant here and all is good...I'm not considering this an arguement but more of a rebutal...The more research we do the more info we have the more we learn...


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Default 04-15-2008, 10:03 AM

Working on it, I forget off the top of my head which amino side groups each certain protein contains and why/how it slows or speeds up digestions.
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Default 04-15-2008, 10:52 AM

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But, I will argue that 25lbs of lbm added in less than 1 year is impossible without the use of androgens and without a very intense diet that is beyond the scope of 90% of mankind. Just my .02 and experience. Best of luck to the OP.
Well I wanted to leave this out but will throw it in the mix anyways..In 1976 I wrestled for Ohio St..I wrestled in the light heavyweight division @ 194 lbs @ 11% B/F..Going into my senior yr the coaches wanted me to move up to heavyweight..In the next 6 months i went from 194 to 249 lbs @ 14% B/F...Now that's a body weight increase of 55 lbs and only 3% in B/F..Doing the figures

194 x 11%.... 21.34 lbs B/F and 172.66 LBM

249 x 14%.....34.86 lbs B/F and 214.32 LBM

A 13 lb gain in B/F and 41.66 lbs in LBM..

I'll take that any day cause overall your going to see more muscle then fat at those ratios..By the way this was natural..If I would have had some form of AAS you can imagine what the change in results would have been..So with this being said I still say i can add 25 lbs to a newbies frame without gear and with little change in B/F over 6 + months..

To anyone here who would like to be my guinea pig I will do this online for you for free to make my point..You must be underweight for your size, less then 6 months training and under 25 yrs of age and be willing to give it 100%.




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If you ate half of what I eat, you wouldn't be 6' tall and 150 lbs
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Default 04-15-2008, 11:21 AM

You're a freak man!!!!
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Default 04-15-2008, 12:25 PM



I absolutely LOVE it when Jordan gets into a debate with someone.
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Default 04-15-2008, 12:53 PM

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You're a freak man!!!!
With todays supplements I'm sure it is easier now then back in the 70's..You might not believe this but back then we didn't even think of cholestrol..My diet was probably around 7-10k in calories..I ate all day long..It was mostly beef, chicken and eggs along with fruit and gr veggies and orange juice..I ate close to 4 lbs of beef or chicken and had 3 doz eggs a day...One doz for breakfast, one Dz raw in OJ while training and one doz before bedtime..After I hit 249 lbs I stagnated..I then stated using AAS and did for 7 straight yrs going to a weight of 341 lbs. One thing about the 70's everyone was under Doctors care while using aas..My Dr. was world known..His name was Dr. Robert Kerr in San Gabriel, Calif. He did Blood test on us every 3 months and if your numbers were good he kept you on..If not he took you off until they were..

Note: We only used three different types of aas..Test E, D-bol and Anadrol




I'm Old, I'm Tough but I know what I'm talking about.

If you ate half of what I eat, you wouldn't be 6' tall and 150 lbs
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I pull no punches, I tell it like it is

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Default 04-15-2008, 01:01 PM

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I absolutely LOVE it when Jordan gets into a debate with someone.
Tiff, I'll bet you watch the UFC don't you..I can see you now, kick his ass...




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Default 04-15-2008, 03:58 PM

Actually, I'm rather fond of Jordan. He's a smart cookie, you'd be hard-pressed to find more of hardass on diet and nutrition (okay, so maybe Kickboy would tie him for it!), and he's not all talk - he walks the walk, too. Oh-and he's nice to look at, to boot.

The reason I love to watch his debates is because his tenacity is just pretty freakin cool.

So - even though I could totally hand his ass to him, I like him enough not to. (I just know he's so relieved right now!)

And yeah - I love to watch a good fight. I'm dying to see Serra get stomped by GSP - if the ref calls bullshit this time, though - I won't be watching UFC again. They've had some sketchy calls.
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Default 04-16-2008, 08:05 AM

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Actually, I'm rather fond of Jordan. He's a smart cookie, you'd be hard-pressed to find more of hardass on diet and nutrition (okay, so maybe Kickboy would tie him for it!), and he's not all talk - he walks the walk, too. Oh-and he's nice to look at, to boot.

The reason I love to watch his debates is because his tenacity is just pretty freakin cool.

So - even though I could totally hand his ass to him, I like him enough not to. (I just know he's so relieved right now!)

And yeah - I love to watch a good fight. I'm dying to see Serra get stomped by GSP - if the ref calls bullshit this time, though - I won't be watching UFC again. They've had some sketchy calls.
I knew you were a UFC girl...




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If you ate half of what I eat, you wouldn't be 6' tall and 150 lbs
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Default 04-16-2008, 08:43 AM

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I knew you were a UFC girl...
She'll break some of your ribs too!


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Current Supplements: Protein (varies) - ON Optimen Vitamins - PreSurge Unleashed - SciVation Xtend (Recovery)[FONT=Tahoma]








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Default 04-16-2008, 09:23 AM

When my opponent is more than twice my size or has a skill level far superior to mine I go for the throat, as a rule.

But I'm not opposed to cracking some ribs, I guess.
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Default 04-16-2008, 09:32 AM

Okay I am going to be the asshole here guys. Let's get this thread back on track. LOL.

This is what the post whore thread is used for. I don't want the poster to get lost.


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Default 04-16-2008, 12:18 PM

Well I am going to be pretty lazy about looking up sources for side group reactivity in the digestive system. However, I will say that all types of synthesized protein (whey and WPI specifically) get digested very early in the GI tract, mainly the mouth and stomach from proteases. This, coupled with the body's "starvation" state allows these easily digestable and already smaller chains of proteins to be absorbed and stored faster. This is good for post workout, but bad for a regular meal, because you have no immediate need of protein, but you will an hr from then, and a shake just doesn't last long enough in the body. Adding fat to a shake works good in theory, but since the shake is a liquid, the fat cannot coat the "bolus" of food, because there is no bolus. The esophagus does not need to peristaltically contract to move the shake down into the stomach, gravity takes care of that just fine, and the fat does not become homogenous in the mouth to coat the amino acids with fat the prevent rapid adsorption (yes adsorption) by the small intestine.

I will digress, and say that protein shakes usually wont make or break someone's progress until a very high level. It's just a bad habit to get into, and also there are some protein manufacturers that use high fructose corn syrup in their protein blends, which I would advocate staying away from.

To TOM,
Wow, that diet you posted was intense, almost other-worldly. I would like to see someone eat like that just to see what happens. I would get so fat its incredible, but wow, just wow on that intake.
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Default 04-16-2008, 08:04 PM

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To TOM,
Wow, that diet you posted was intense, almost other-worldly. I would like to see someone eat like that just to see what happens. I would get so fat its incredible, but wow, just wow on that intake.
You would be surprized..The thing about it is it's not a lot of carbs and this really helped keep the fat at bay..Jordon back then we did really high volume..There were days where I worked out twice a day for 2-3 hrs a time..They claim all this over training and crap and I'm just not a believer in that..Your body will tell you when the cns is burning out..

Robt we are still here for you..jump in friend and ask questions and one or more of us will repond.




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If you ate half of what I eat, you wouldn't be 6' tall and 150 lbs
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Default 04-17-2008, 11:00 AM

Well, you can workout for 2-3 hours a day while on AASs. Without that in the equation you are overtraining. My opinion.


Jack3D and that's it, nothing else other then FOOD
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Default 04-17-2008, 11:33 AM

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You would be surprized..The thing about it is it's not a lot of carbs and this really helped keep the fat at bay..Jordon back then we did really high volume..There were days where I worked out twice a day for 2-3 hrs a time..They claim all this over training and crap and I'm just not a believer in that..Your body will tell you when the cns is burning out..

Robt we are still here for you..jump in friend and ask questions and one or more of us will repond.

With all due respect the way you guys trained in the 70's, 80's and even in the 90's was gross overtraining. Even in an article and I will find it to prove my point, even Arnold has come out and stated that they overtrained in those days.

It was all an ego thing and resting was not an option.

The sad thing in all of this is that the science of Human physiology has taken us leaps and bounds in the past 10 years, but people still don't pay attention to it rather want to show how tough they are and work til you can't stand up. That is commendable to a point. I was trained that way, but if I could start it all over again and learn that I did not need to do all of that which I did when I was 14 thru 30 years old I would do it in a heart beat.

That is why I think it is a blessing to have the science today to train the younger generation how to do it right. Not the easy way mind you but do it right and net better results.

Here is a perfect example and some may disagree especially you older guys.

Take the player of the NFL 30 years ago and match them up with players from today. What do you get.

Players of the past were definately strong, no doubt about it. They were Mean as badgers and Tasmanian Devils and they really wanted to hurt you on the field. They were not necessarily the best athletes however. They had a burning desire to win. That in most cases is what is lost in today's athlete.

Now, Take today's players. They are bigger, faster, and stronger. Which ultimately makes them more dangerous,hence all the really bad injuries in football today.

Hell, even look at basketball players. Back 30 years ago it was inconcivalbe to even have a player over 250 lbs. and now look at them. Shaq hell he is over 300.

What players lack today is what players of yesteryear had and I already stated that. The desire to win. Oh they have a desire to win but not like it used to be.

Where does all of this fit in our discussion. Plenty.

I may not have the scientific background of Jordan, The Loaf, or even Madman but I do understand laymans terms which is 90% of us.

What all of this means In My Opinion is that we have come so far in today's training and learning how the human body works and how to make it the most efficient machine on the planet. It is absolutely amazing the things we are able to do with the body.

If it was not for the men and warriors of our past pushing those limits then we would have never learned what we know today.

I still do think listening to your body is one of the best tools to understanding overtraining and even in diet as well. Eat to get big but eat smart to continue to stay big and perform, because in the long run it is all about performance that counts.

I have seen many a man talk about how to do certain things and then some phenom come along that breaks every rule about diet and nutrition and just shatter Jim Stopannis theroies in Muscle&Fitness diet articles.

I agree somewhat with both parties here on the different theories but I guess I took a long way around it to explain it. LOL.


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Default 04-17-2008, 12:14 PM

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You would be surprized..The thing about it is it's not a lot of carbs and this really helped keep the fat at bay..Jordon back then we did really high volume..There were days where I worked out twice a day for 2-3 hrs a time..They claim all this over training and crap and I'm just not a believer in that..Your body will tell you when the cns is burning out.
question: do you have any pains today? wrist, back, neck, knee, etc.? Range of motion / flexibility issues? did you hit plateaus often in your training?

This is true curiosity asking, not a young buck trying to sound like a know-it-all


Nothing great was ever achieved by being realistic. Most people get scared when setting goals, and ask only for what they think they can get, not what they really WANT. This is a mistake because puny, "realistic" goals are NOT motivating, WANTS are motivating.

I got the shakes that'll make ya quake
I got the fries'll cross ya eyes
I got the burgers....
Well, man, I just got burgers!
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